Exploring How Society Works

Courtship: A Special Problem For The Analyst (INTj)

Posted on: September 13, 2007

geek.jpgThe following article by David DeAngelo still represents an old favourite of mine as it uncannily seems to describe INTj males when it comes to their Achilles Heel – initiating romantic relations.

Despite the long-range strategy for how they think a relationship will play out we seem to lack the short-range tactics for actually getting things off-the-ground in the first place. Of course I’m generalising this to all male INTj types.

Some male INTj types that I know, young and old, have proved me completely wrong, especially the ones that got “hooked up” with a partner in either an academic or work environment.

For the rest of us here’s that classic article by D. DeAngelo to indulge in… with my conclusions at the end.


Why Very Intelligent Men Fail with Women

The Ten Reasons Why HIGHLY INTELLIGENT Men Fail With Women… AND WHAT TO DO ABOUT IT…

I’ve been teaching men how to become more successful with women and dating for several years now… and one “problem scenario” just keeps coming up OVER AND OVER… and OVER and OVER and OVER again…

…and it really amazes me.

I’m going to refer to it as “The Genius Failure Paradox”.

“The Genius Failure Paradox” is the tendency for UNUSUALLY intelligent men to have very LOW levels of success with women and dating.

After contemplating this particular paradox, discussing it, and working on it for an awesome amount of time, I’d like to share my thoughts about it with you.

I assume that if you’ve read this far, then you see probably yourself as smarter than the average guy.

You know that you’re a little different than other guys.

You probably realized at a young age that you saw things differently, and thought differently than others in school…

And you’ve probably realized that your smart mind gives you an advantage over others in many areas of life…

Your smart mind gives you a particular type of advantage that can be very, very powerful in life: YOU’RE USUALLY RIGHT.

Smart people get used to being “right”, because they usually ARE right.

And when you’re RIGHT more often than others, you can get ahead in many situations.

But unfortunately, this smart mind of yours can actually be WORSE than USELESS when it comes to a key area of life:

WOMEN AND DATING.

By the way, I did say WORSE than useless.

It can actually be like having a hammer when you need to tighten a bolt. If you use the tool you have for the job, you’ll most likely make the situation WORSE.

Of course, it’s hard for a smart guy to even IMAGINE a situation where his smart mind could HURT his chances for success…

But trust me, this is one of those situations.

So relax, open your smart mind, and let me share with you the ten reasons why smart guys fail with women… and what to do about it.

Reason #1: They’re wrong, but they can’t or won’t see it or admit it.

I mentioned that smart guys are used to being RIGHT in most situations.

And what do most smart guys do when they come across a situation where they’re WRONG?

They find a new situation… one that fits their strength. They know they’ll be right next time, so they just walk away… knowing that it won’t be long before they’re right again.

(OR they let the “problem situation” destroy them… more on that later.)

Well, the BITCH about being wrong when it comes to women and dating is THERE’S NOWHERE TO RUN AND HIDE.

There’s no quick “I’m right” around the next corner to make you feel better.

It only takes “failing” with a few women in a row for a smart guy to see the pattern… and realize that something isn’t working.

Solution? Think harder.

A smart guy just assumes that his logic must be good… so he just keeps thinking harder.

But when no success comes, it really starts to become mentally difficult.

Accepting that you’re wrong is a VERY hard thing for a “smart guy”.

Accepting that you’re not only wrong, but you have NO CLUE WHERE TO EVEN START is even more difficult.

Ultimately, many smart guys come up with the following logical conclusion:

I AM A SMART GUY, THEREFORE IF I CAN’T FIGURE OUT HOW TO BE SUCCESSFUL WITH WOMEN AND DATING, THEN THE PROBLEM MUST NOT BE SOLVABLE OR WORTH SOLVING.

Try that on for a self-defeating idea.

Reason #2: They’re blind and arrogant.

In short, many smart guys refuse to accept that a good, solid, workable answer could come from someone “dumber” than them, so they discount any idea that comes from an “obviously less intelligent person” before trying it.

Let me ask you a question:

If you were going to be walking across Africa on foot, would you rather have your guide be the guy on this planet with the highest I.Q., or a caveman who lived a million years ago that had an I.Q. of about 50… but who grew up being chased by lions and all kinds of animals that wanted to eat him all his life?

It’s an interesting question.

Now, hopefully you’d like to have the guide who isn’t the smartest guy around… but who has escaped from many, many dangerous situations with deadly animals…

But now let me ask you:

If you’d like to learn how to be more successful with women and dating, would you take advice from a guy who isn’t very intelligent, but who knows how to attract women?

There’s something about being smart that makes some guys unwilling to accept input, ideas, or instruction from anyone who isn’t either as smart or smarter

Well, any SMART GUY can see the folly in this particular approach… once it’s examined closely.

If you’ve been making this mistake, then you need to STOP IT. Stop being an arrogant bastard, and open your eyes.

Look around.

Learn from some “dumb” guys… and let them teach you how to get what you REALLY want.

Reason #3: Poor Social Skills.

It BLOWS MY MIND how many smart guys I meet that just don’t GET IT when it comes to basic social skills.

It’s as if they have logically reasoned that social skills are for lower beings who need to play games… and not worth the time it would take to learn them.

In fact, I believe that there are a lot of smart guys running around this planet who don’t even have “social skills” and “be a cool guy that people like” in their “MENTAL MODEL” of what it could possibly take to be successful with women and dating.

Social skills are just that… SKILLS.

They’re not social INFORMATION.

They’re not social THEORIES.

They’re social SKILLS.

And you don’t get them by THINKING about them. You get them by GETTING them.

Excellent social skills are the foundation for good communication with other humans… and if you don’t have good social skills, you dramatically lower your chances for success with women.

Reason #4: They psych themselves out.

Smart guys do something that fascinates the hell out of me…

They come up with all the reasons why everything WON’T WORK when it comes to women and dating.

They actually figure out why what they would like to do will probably fail…

They use their amazing creative imaginations to imagine all kinds of horrible pictures and scenes… and then they use those imaginary outcomes to create negative emotions… which ultimately stop them from having success with women and dating.

THEY DON’T EVEN TRY.

Now, if you’ve thought something through and come up with a good reason why it would fail, it makes sense to not do it, right?

I mean, why would you want to do things that are going to fail?

It’s sound logic, but HORRIBLE thinking when it comes to the REAL WORLD… and success with women.

Because smart guys don’t UNDERSTAND women, and they don’t UNDERSTAND what it takes to be successful with women, they are working with bad figures. They’re wrong before they even start figuring!

Using your mind to come up with all the reasons why things won’t work in this area of your life leads to ULTIMATE FAILURE.

You must learn to overcome this habit if you have it.

Reason #5: They seek only “informational solutions.”

What does a smart guy do when he runs into a problem… or he needs to figure something out?

He looks for INFORMATION to help him solve the problem.

MORE INFORMATION is always the answer.

Information is the friend of a smart guy.

Got a strange virus on your computer? Just hop on the internet and search for how to eliminate it.

Don’t know how to change the alternator on your car? No prob. Just buy the manual and turn to page 147.

Don’t know the definition of a word? Open up your dictionary.

MORE INFORMATION solves the problem.

So what do smart guys do when it comes to overcoming a problem with women?

They want MORE INFORMATION.

They think the answer lies in learning just ONE MORE TECHNIQUE… or one more magic concept.

Well what if there were a situation in life where the “get more information” strategy actually made things WORSE?

How would you even know that it was making things worse?

Now, I don’t want to suggest that learning more about how to be successful with women is a bad thing. It’s not.

But if you have a problem that is EMOTIONAL or PHYSICAL in nature, then reading five million theories on it probably isn’t going to help you very much.

You need to get out in the real world and try some stuff!

You need to look at the REAL problem… the ROOT of the problem.

When it comes to women and dating, there’s a very good chance that you have MORE than enough “information”.

Smart guys often use “more information” to distract them from TAKING ACTION.

I’ve heard this referred to as “Creative Avoidance”.

Nod silently if you’ve ever figured out a creative way to avoid facing something in your life.

Good, thank you.

Reason #6: They focus on logic instead of emotion.

NEWS JUST IN: Women don’t feel ATTRACTION for men who make them THINK.

Women feel ATTRACTION for men who make them FEEL.

So what do most smart guys do when they first meet a woman?

EXACTLY!

They get into a LOGICAL CONVERSATION.

I’m shaking my head right now…

Smart men try to engage women in LOGICAL conversations and interactions because that’s where THEY feel comfortable… not knowing that they’re SHOOTING THEMSELVES IN THE FOOT by doing it!

Get this: A monkey sitting at a typewriter will type the collected works of Shakespeare before you will make a woman feel ATTRACTION for you by engaging her in logical conversation.

When you start a logical conversation with a woman you’ve just met, you are basically taking out a NEON SIGN that says “I don’t get it when it comes to women” and putting it on your head.

Typical “logical” conversations include talking about work, family, school, and jobs… discussing politics, religion, weather… and anything that has to do with math, science, or INTELLIGENCE.

On the other hand, if you start talking to a woman and you say “OK, so tell me something… Why is it that all women say that they want sweet, nice guys… but they all date sexy, selfish bad boys?” (and then make fun of any answer she gives) you’re having an EMOTIONAL conversation.

If you don’t know what I’m talking about, keep reading. You need more help than I thought.

Reason #7: They’re not used to the challenge of the moment.

Smart people usually have time to THINK about things.

If you’re taking a test, you can sit there and work out the answers.

If you have a math problem, you can work on it until you’ve figured it out.

If you’re trying to fix something, you can keep working on it until it’s fixed.

Smart guys are used to being able to take at least a LITTLE bit of time to prepare and show off their “good sides” in most situations.

Not so with women…

If you don’t know what to do at every step along the way, you’ll be shut down very quickly.

Women have an AMAZING “He doesn’t get it” radar system.

Women have all kinds of subtle and ingenious tests that they throw at men to separate the “get its” from the “don’t get its”.

And if you don’t get it, then you’re going to fail one of these tests VERY quickly.

But the worst part is that you won’t ever KNOW that you were being tested… OR that you failed.

Smart guys aren’t used to dealing with complex EMOTIONAL and COMMUNICATION challenges in the moment… and especially the “women and dating” kind.

One of they keys to becoming more successful with women and dating is learning to handle all of the tests that women throw at you effortlessly.

But before you can learn how to deal with the tests, you must first learn how to communicate on an emotional level, how to demonstrate that you have fundamental social skills, and how to keep your cool in the moment.

Reason #8: They think that doing “nice” things is the “smart way.”

OK, let me ask you a trick question:

If I told you that you were going to have a date with the supermodel of your choice, which of the following would you choose as a “smart” way of preparing:

1) Find out what her favorite type of flowers are, and show up with a dozen of them so she would be “wowed”.

2) Learn about her favorite travel destination so you could discuss it with her.

3) Find out what her favorite type of food is so you could take her to dinner… and she could see that you cared enough to choose something that she enjoyed.

OK, time’s up. Which did you choose?

Now, I already mentioned that this was a TRICK question.

The answer is NONE OF THE ABOVE.

But WHY?

These three options all seemed logical, right?

I mean, why WOULDN’T you want to show up with her favorite flowers?

Why WOULDN’T you want to talk about her favorite places to travel?

Why WOULDN’T you want to take her to eat her favorite foods so she enjoyed herself?

Go with me here…

Smart guys think that they’re being CLEVER when they do things like buying a woman her favorite flowers… and bringing them to the FIRST DATE.

Right?

In their minds, they’re thinking “I’m going to be the guy who is thinking ahead… and I’m going to show up with the flowers that I KNOW she loves… and she’s going to see them and like me more because of it”.

Makes sense… good math, right?

Well the one teensy-weensy mistake that these “smart” guys make is not realizing that it doesn’t actually take a smart person to think like this!

In fact, ANY jackass can figure out how to kiss a woman’s ass.

And guess what?

WOMEN KNOW THIS!

And guess what else?

EVERY WUSSBAG DOES THIS STUFF.

An intelligent guy, in his proud arrogance, will think he’s being such the charmer by using this “thoughtful” approach…

…and the woman he is chasing will interpret it as just another Wussy who’s trying to MANIPULATE her.

Ouch. Another blow to intelligence.

Reason #9: Always needing to be the expert.

Have you ever met a smart guy who always needed to be “right”?

Have you ever met someone who would actually argue with you about something they knew nothing about… and make a fool of themselves because they just couldn’t shut their “smart mouths”?

Over the last few years helping guys improve their success with women, I see this one pattern over and over again…

Smart guys don’t like to be “beginners” at ANYTHING.

They don’t like the idea of screwing up… especially if others are watching.

They want to maintain this “smart guy” image of themselves… so they try to always be “The Expert” at whatever they do.

Instead of saying “Hey, you know what? I’m a beginner at this… how do I do it? What should I do first? What next?”… and instead of being totally OK with screwing up, making mistakes, and making a fool of themselves in front of others in order to LEARN…

…they won’t risk embarrassment, failure, or others thinking that they’re beginners… so they wind up ultimately FAILING.

MORE NEWS JUST IN: It’s OK to be a beginner.

Reason #10: They can’t deal with fear and other emotions.

A smart guy’s STRENGTH is his MIND.

His WEAKNESS is often his EMOTIONS.

Smart guys are often IMMOBILIZED by FEAR.

Totally stopped.

FROZEN.

And since many smart guys aren’t comfortable dealing with things they’re not good at, they just repress or RUN away from fear.

Many men would rather DIE in lonely isolation than admit that they don’t know how to deal with their emotions… or, GOD FORBID, ask for help!

Hey, I went for YEARS like this.

I know what it’s like.

But the reality is that any guy can learn to handle and even MASTER his emotions (even fear)… if he just takes the time and effort to learn HOW to do it.

If this is you, then do yourself a big favor… take the time. Take the effort.

Don’t worry about what anyone else thinks of you… it doesn’t matter.

What matters is you doing the things that YOU need to do FOR YOU.

…I think the reason why I’m so fascinated with “The Genius Failure Paradox” is because I have had to struggle with all of these issues for a lot of years of my life.

Now, I’m not saying that I’m the smartest guy on the planet…

But I don’t think mamma raised no fool.

And it always bothered the hell out of me that even though I was so good at figuring things out, I couldn’t figure WOMEN out.

Something tells me that you know what I’m talking about.

Well, after beating my head against the wall for a few years… trying all kinds of crazy “logical” stuff… I finally got the “bright” idea to start studying guys who were “naturally” good with women.

Of course, I found out that you could be both NOT SMART, and VERY SUCCESSFUL WITH WOMEN at the same time.

I also learned that you can be SMART and VERY SUCCESSFUL WITH WOMEN too.

By carefully studying what the “naturals” did with women… and learning how they “thought” about the topic, I began to realize that success with women wasn’t entirely LOGICAL.

Much of what I learned was very tough for me to accept… because my logical brain just didn’t want to buy into it.

One thing I saw was guys pushing women away from them… and having the women then chase them in response.

Made no sense at all.

I saw guys tease beautiful women and make jokes about them to their faces… and then watched those women become “little girls” in response… unable to maintain their composure, and therefore unable to maintain their manipulative power…

It took me quite a long time, but I continued to learn, test, and refine what I was learning until I personally figured out how to approach women in any situation… get any woman’s number I wanted anytime I wanted… date any type of woman I wanted…

…and most importantly, GET RID of that “empty” feeling that I carried around my whole life because I didn’t know how to attract women.

And once I got this area of my own life together, I decided to help other guys get this area of THEIR lives together.

The ultimate result of all this time, effort, and energy is my free Dating Tips Newsletter.

And I’d like to invite you to sign up.

It’s free, there’s no obligation, I’ll never share your email address with anyone, and you can easily remove yourself anytime with no hassles (and no, I’ll never pull any of these tricks where I send you a bunch of unwanted junk email when you try to remove yourself).

Of course, it even gets better than that…

In addition to my free Dating Tips newsletter, I also have a killer downloadable eBook that you can download right now and be reading in literally MINUTES from right now.

It’s JAM PACKED with dozens and dozens of specific strategies for overcoming fear, approaching women, getting phone numbers and email address from women quickly, great inexpensive or even free date ideas, and how to take things to a “physical” level smoothly and easily.

To sign up for my free newsletter AND download your copy of my online eBook, just go here:

Free Dating Tips Newsletter and Download eBook

And I’ll talk to you again soon.

Your Friend,

David DeAngelo

Copyright 2007 David DeAngelo Communications Inc., All Rights Reserved. “David DeAngelo” and “Double Your Dating” are trademarks used by David DeAngelo Communications Inc.


My Conclusions:

rejection-is-not-fatal.jpgAnd now for a quick summary of the ten points given in relation to INTj males.

Again, a generalisation using my own experiences as a reference point that other INTj males can probably relate to.

For everyone else it may just be yet another useful/useless insight into an INTj mind.

Reason #1: They’re wrong, but they can’t or won’t see it or admit it.

INTj males in a stressful social situation can come across arrogant as a solution to the problem of anxiety because we can retreat into the comfort zone of our ego functions which essentially want to know how things work and explore the possibilities therein. As strong maverick leaders we can be very stubborn to the opinions of others since we probably believe in learning the hard way through our own mistakes which will be of more value in the long-term to our displeasure in the short-term.

Reason #2: They’re blind and arrogant.

Following on from the first point we then give the impression we are aloof and detached as we gradually get more and more uncomfortable. The only comfort seems to come in the form of introspection where we usually retreat somewhere and start analysing and reliving the situation which we had detached from at the time.

Reason #3: Poor Social Skills.

As “social stress” increases our generally infantile social skills get progressively worse until we eventually revert to a reclusive silent state and lose all need to interact and make an effort with people socially.

Reason #4: They psych themselves out.

Within say 20 minutes of entering a social environment and spotting a potential woman to catch the attention of we usually become our own worst enemies. That impulsive spark of subjectivism that made us initially feel “she looks nice/hot/fit/attractive/beautiful” or whatever then becomes a passing whim as we fall back into our comfort zone of objectivism.

Reason #5: They seek only “informational solutions.”

Every time we fail to get any results we retreat back into the world of theory planning our next move or aversion strategy to avoid future situations for a while.

Reason #6: They focus on logic instead of emotion.

Of course we’re cold and antipathic by nature as anesthetic types. That’s our natural disposition. We’re warm and empathic usually through action rather than words. I’ll always remember that time when I used my individualism to full effect when I bought a gold coloured rose on one St. Valentine’s Day and literally brought a tear to the eye of a receptionist I liked.

Reason #7: They’re not used to the challenge of the moment.

Following on from the last point… after I presented the rose I immediately lost my way and didn’t seize the moment by thinking to ask if she wanted to go for coffee or something. Another opportunity squandered which lead to a further period of intense frustration since us schizothymic types don’t get depressed per se.

Reason #8: They think that doing “nice” things is the “smart way.”

I clearly remember planning the whole rose thing in my mind and executing it perfectly acting like a complete gentleman because I felt it was “smart”. I later realised that I had I been more of a “jerk” in the sense of actually asking the girl out we wouldn’t still be reflecting on this subject today.

Reason #9: Always needing to be the expert.

This web log is a testament to this. Treating the whole “settling down” problem as a thing that needs analysing to death until a solution is found.

Reason #10: They can’t deal with fear and other emotions.

I would imagine most INTj males can’t handle letting their emotions get the best of them which we usually keep under strict control. Therefore we miss opportunities everywhere to simply chat and discover a suitable romantic partner. Schizothymically speaking I wouldn’t be surprised if the love of a woman could potentially drive an INTj male insane because he couldn’t bring himself to express it and seal his fate by “retiring” from the philosophical game.

What is Schizothymia?

Schizothymia is an affective disorder often associated with cyclothymia for it’s lessened severity as a schizophrenic affect disorder, much as cyclothymia is classed as a less severe bipolar mood disorder.

A schizothymic personality consists of an affect that is cold, withdrawn or indifferent to the point of psychopathy in intimate interpersonal interactions, but is also able to achieve a relatively warm, open, receptive & sociable affect in some other specific situations.

The separation of which, the personable from otherwise, is not governed by normally warranted stimuli for the change between the two temperaments, but rather is idiopathic, arising from no interpersonal source, and can be solely traced to the psychology of the individual in question.

Schizothymia. (n.d.). Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Retrieved September 13, 2007, from Reference.com website: http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Schizothymia

So what does all this mean to me specifically?

It generally means that I’m as cold as ice waiting for a miracle that will never come. Also, knowing about relationships from a Socionics point of view is a prime example of Always needing to be the expert as a solution to the problem of social anxiety.

Schizothymia is simply an excellent rationalisation (i.e. a well thought out excuse) to justify a life of austere bachelorhood. On an optimistic note however, the honest identification of this affective disorder as a personal problem marks a step towards growth and change.

Since we can’t fight fire with fire we shall have to melt my icy mask with I.C.E. i.e. the method of Identifying Confronting and Eliminating your irrational fears of rejection and emotional conveyance.

At the end of the day would you rather have cyclothymia?

No way!

I’d rather have intense frustrations rather than cycles of grandiosity followed by dystopia.

Schizothymes have too much strategy and not enough action whilst cyclothymes have too little strategy and plenty of action.

The synergy, or greater sum of both equates to RESULTS.

Two line summary:

make-an-impact.jpgDon’t let your inferior just react (Extroverted Sensing) function keep you from getting immediate results.

Be BOLD, act on impulse and MAKE AN IMPACT on that woman you want a romantic relationship with.

28 Responses to "Courtship: A Special Problem For The Analyst (INTj)"

Wow.

Amazing.

It’s me.

It amazes me that we can actually categorize human population into different personality types and it really works.

Kinda feel this inner comfort that I’m not the only analyst in the world facing these problems.

Hi,
does somebody know about INTJ dating site?
Thank you.
Sandra, F56:))

The advice given to this article somewhat applies to INTJ women as well. I can identify with all 10 reasons to one extent or another. I don’t think it’s a “smart man” problem as it has to do with being “NT.” I just wanted to throw out that little insight.

Women don’t like to think? I have to say, I stopped reading around that point, seeing as how it is a generalisation to a seriously silly affect.

Other than that, what I saw seemed to be truthful by majority; I say this being an INTJ female.

I’m a INTJ woman and I prefer logical conversation than the games suggested in this article

I have never actually met an INTJ woman…….

I am the ultra INTJ. Probably the top-1% in IQ and analytical ability, but in the bottom 1% in social skills. To top it off, I am an ethnic minority.

This combination does not make for a happy life.

Haha…”probably?” I cannot appreciate someone who proclaims, without empirical evidence, that he is in the top 1% of the population in both IQ and analytical ability. This leads me to believe that you are actually insecure. I am very curious to see where you rank among other INTJs…we happen to account for approximately 1% of the world population.

NEWS JUST IN: Women don’t feel ATTRACTION for men who make them THINK.

Yes, many of us do.

Good stuff, but wrong on a few points. All truly smart people are more than willing to admit they are wrong, in fact, they need to know when they are wrong if they are to continue learning. This article has a few silly mistakes like that, like saying the only way to get social skills is to get them. Like that makes any sense. Like most dating articles, this one is big on the generalizations and short on the practical advice.

Thank you, Sam. I love to be told when I am wrong. It rarely happens (not sure if this is because I’m rarely wrong or merely because people avoid telling me when I’m wrong), but when it does happen, it usually leads me to a period of intense thought, followed by a revelation that can sometimes significantly alter my belief system on some subject. What Analyst wouldn’t want to experience that kind of excitement?

I think this article has a LOT of truth to it involving INTJ men (not all smart men are INTJ btw), but it seems to mistake courting women with courting immature women or courting bimbos. Not all women are like this.

Fairly accurate I believe. I’ve made most of these mistakes. I’m not arrogant like that, but otherwise….. (I’m probably not, I suppose)

I am an INTJ woman, and I did smile alot reading this. Eventhough I am a female I could recognize alot ot this in
myself. I have never understood why men should talk about feelings before they learn to know me, and I am in heaven when I can discuss and analyse subjects with men. I just adore logical,rational and analytical men ,and even better if they can learn med something and open my eyes to something I didnt know. Men that try to seduce me or learn to know by trying the feeling-stuff is a total turn-off:-)
But I am not without emotions, but it just takes alot of time to get there, and men usually dont take that time.

This is really informative from an analytical perspective; I do however want to point out that INTJ’s are far too harsh on themselves! You are lovely and VERY hot and is in fact VERY good with socializing! Please don’t let stereotypical thinking leave you in a box. My husband is an INTJ and I am an ENFJ and he is SO affectionate and loving and romantic and just the most amazing man and lover! The more I get to know him the more I want to tell all the other INTJ’s out there that if this world knew there were lovers and men like you, mothers won’t let you marry and wife’s won’t let you out of the house! You are AMAZING!

Please remember that you are always IN RELATION to others!!! So please be patient with how you may appear in relation with others in your immediate environment as there are sadly not enough INTJ’s in the world that will help people better understand you because you are so rare and I bet whenever someone meets you it’s the first time they have met someone like you!

Please don’t think woman/men or dating is stereotypically your achilles heel as I can promise you that it’s rather other’s ignorance of your mystical internal phenomena that is so unique and breathtaking that all those others who have never understood you will forever regret their ignorance!
Also, relationships have two sides and if it becomes too much hard work, it means you are getting out of sync with your own character and they are probably not the one for you.

Please carry on being your high and mighty Mr Ni’s!!! That’s all you have got to trust. Honestly, I don’t even have to tell my husband what to do or how….he just knows!!!

You guys all rock!

Reecie, I often wish I had not left my ENFJ male, but it was an important choice at the time–beautiful human being. I wish you well on your marriage. The Ni-Se connection is perfect.

Reecie….I always had an inkling that an INTJ-ENFJ duo is a natural pair and reading your post has gone a long way in reinforcing that….and thanks for all the good words :)

INTJ

Beautifully spoken. Nice shot in the arm. Thanks.

Wow, that last comment just made my day. :-)

You spend a couple hours reading articles like this, being lonely in your room, and then you hear a nice lady being so kind and encouraging… Thanks for the big emotional boost for us INTJ’s!

Gold coloured rose? Made *me* shed a freaking tear! I might steal that one.. but with a follow up ;)

I don’t like to be labelled, but I have to admit, I’m an ‘INTJ’ ‘male’. And I’ve only got poor social skills because I never developed them when I was a child thanks to how I was raised. Consequently, as I grew up, a social life was replaced with study/work with lots of thinking time. But… Social skills are ultimately more beneficial than academic ones.

However, I can say that since I’m analytical, I have identified my shortcomings and have improved my social skills from introverted loner to lecherous lothario (loner).

There’s hope for us yet if we want to achieve something.

PS. I’ve just read my reply twice to check spelling and grammar… 8-(

Greetings. I am one of the RL-elusive, internet ubiquitous biologically female INTJs. I prefer N types and/or T male types for mating. I appreciate your article and am often in a similar predicament. Unfortunately, as a female, one must also bat off and be responsible for all of those who come at you instead of just those whom you are pursuing.

General input I have for female NTs: when pursuing male NTs, you may have to allocate an additional 20% of your usual pursuing time to lead the male NT out of his socially-normative and easily reinforced-by-society misogyny, which is usually a result of his personality combined with the bx of average females (E, S, F types especially). If your NT male in question is also an introvert, you will likely need a further 5% increase in time to spend on that.

It makes statistically that your NT male potential will not have worked on the misogyny, as he doesn’t have to, people think he’s strange, and he’s usually better at things than they are. He will likely see you as a female and assume that you fit a stereotype of being female. You may or may not dress according to your gender, and you have probably had to master the facade of many social niceties, but if you and your male NT want to make things more than a fling (which they usually do), you will need to let him have his “aha” moments in which he realizes he is more similar to you than you are to the average female he is expecting to pursue.

This is stunningly accurate Rebecca! It’s what I’ve done, and it worked. He first assumed I was his “regular female” and tried to push on my feelings but when I proved my coolness (many times!) he actually got stunned and started being unable to cross me AHAHAH Then, he ran away for a while. I waited it out. He now realizes I’m more similar to him that he is to other males (and me to other females) and he is being very sweet. I’m an ENTJ btw – bordering INTJ (E is my weakest score and Ni never tested below 93%).

I’m mostly stunned by the time/effort/understanding you would be willing to commit to allow an NT to warm up to you. It’s almost a reverse stereotype where you as a woman would spend time dealing with male NT ‘irrationalities/biases’.

Probably because you as an NT are acutely aware of your own irrationalities instead of just having ‘feelings’?

(Yes I’m aware this was posted 2 years ago btw – but you never know)

Self-ascribed smart guy and INTJ here. I like most points in this article, but there are a number of subtleties that I think should be noted here. First, I have to differentiate between “I am a smart guy” as a factual statement and “I am a smart guy” as a heuristic statement. In the latter case it may well serve as an excuse for poor social skills or even follow (not logically, of course) from lack of success with women. I wouldn’t rely on self-report as to whether someone is a smart guy, because it’s probably hard to admit for a guy that he sucks with women and that he isn’t that smart either. Also, it should be obvious that any guy who likes to think he is smart should eventually come to the conclusion that possibly applying mere logic to dating is simply a mistake of category. I think that part of the problem here is not just that guys like to think they are smart and apply logic to situations in which it is unfit, but unfortunately they’re not nearly as good with logic as they think (nobody is particularly good with logic, as proven by for instance the Wason test). In the end, they reach a conclusion that may be “logical” in the colloquial sense, but that is logically unsound for a host of reasons (as well as undesirable, but that point was covered well). Whenever I hear someone reach a conclusion like the guy at the end of point 1, I usually just smile and think it’s a passing phase.

There is one point where the article has got it blatantly wrong and that is is when it comes to making women think. In fact, many women enjoy having to think and having to keep up mentally either for its own sake or because it establishes the man as dominant in this area. The problem with conversation is not so much the topic of choice, but the manner in which a topic is approached, and the analog distinction is not between thinking and feeling or logical and emotional, but between (respectively) impersonal and personal. It is not that difficult to make intelligent topics personal for us [i]if we know that we should do that[/i]. After all, we don’t just discuss intelligent stuff because it’s intelligent, but because we [i]personally like[/i] that stuff. It took me a while to see that my reasoning was as follows: 1. I talk about things I like; 2. I talk about intelligent stuff, therefore you can infer that 3. I like this stuff. Showing more of 3, more of my passion for what I talk about, instead of having someone infer it (or not) from the fact that she hears me talk about it a lot has worked wonders for me. It helps if your conversational partner is reasonably intelligent too, of course.

As for point 8, I doubt many smart, analytical people will believe that doing things that are almost a sociological cliché will give them the edge. The problem might be that smart people think they have to do those things in order not to lose. It’s like taking one step forward not because that will get you ahead, but because ‘everybody’ will take one step forward so you’re already behind if you don’t. Basically, it’s easier to screw up somewhere along the line and a lot of ‘smart guy’ behavior is to analyze data from black boxes and make sure that particular mistake is not repeated (or is that just me?).

Finally, I have to say that one point I’m missing is flirting. It’s part of being in the moment and responding on the spot, so I understand there could be a reason for leaving it out. I just felt that it could have been a separate point.

OMG… I loved reading this. I’m an INTJ woman and although there’s a concentration of them in the comments here because of the topic, we’re a rare bunch for sure.

I just had to comment to say I IDENTIFIED SO MUCH with all of this, it is not just men that experience these feelings and completely shut down. What’s so frustrating is that I’m intelligent (not arrogant) but when it comes to idle chit-chat I just shut down. Of course I’m capable of it, but it’s do uncomfortable and BORING for me that I end up retreating into my mind, or worse, I drive the conversation to something with more depth because it’s just more interesting.

Apparently that’s not socially skillful because I get labeled as “intense, deep, intelligent, or private” probably because I’m not super-comfortable talking about emotions or my personal feelings. I’d rather have the commentary be “out there” than something about my personal life. Oh, it’s nice to read something that hits so close to home.

As to a previous poster’s comment being offended about women not wanting to “think” in run-of-the-mill social situations, I don’t think there’s anything offensive about that. I think it’s more that MOST women would rather chit chat than get into a deep discussion on the first meeting/date. I’m more comfortable in the deep discussions where I can intellectualize something rather than expressing feelings about it one way or the other. great article.

Wow. Very poignient and matter-of-fact. Thank God there are intjs writing articles like this for other intjs.
I’ve been trying to figure out why three serious relationships (all lasting for a diminished period of time compared to the last) have ended in failure. I have to laugh, because over the past two years I researched the hell out of all this…time for some action methinks?! Your article, however, just laid it straight for me. Thank you.

Case in point… Some of the comments here read like academic essays.

If you disagree with any of the points in the article then you’re disagreeing with a huge amount of empirical data by DeAngelo (at the risk of me sounding like the INTJ that I am).

The Game by Neil Strauss was a useful intro for me to get out of my head…

Um, this sounds more like a description of what is wrong with a large portion of the population. LOL

Some additional thoughts:
1) NTs are problem solvers that get frustrated if they cannot succeed immediately – realize that even most problems get solved when you’re not actively thinking about them. Realize that a lot of romancing also happens when you’re not together. The brain is a powerful erogenous zone (for both men and women). Fantasizing is important, and both men and women do it a lot. This is even more true for ‘NT-types’ who typically have vivid imaginations. One of the reasons that ‘I’ve been thinking about you’ is such a powerful sentence. It might even be the reason for the ‘three dates’ cliché in the US or the ‘waiting to call’ for a day.
2) Change management theory says you need the following things to change: Conviction that you will succeed, willingness to put in the required effort/pain, and a desire for the end-result.
So let’s break it down:
Conviction: INTs especially, get the impression that they’re ‘bad at relations’ – they’re not naturally geared for this. They need some signals that they have a good chance to succeed – and with weak ‘F’ they’re not good at picking those up. This can be learned however.
Willingness to do the work and suffer pain: ‘NTs’ are thinking types, not action types. An NT, especially an ‘I’ can muster up the energy only so often – meaning less chances to succeed. However, an NT is willing to put in more effort once there is a bit more substance, so once the awkard beginning has passed they could actually have an advantage in this.
Desire: NT types are usually pretty independent, especially ‘I’ types, and not too unhappy about being alone. Change theory says people don’t change (at least suddenly) because they want something – they change because they are extremely unhappy. So there’s no big drive to change. This is the biggest problem, as you can’t ‘force’ yourself to want something. It’s either there or it isn’t. This has nothing to do with ‘convincing yourself you don’t need a relationship’. If the feelings are strong enough you can’t logic them away. You can’t repress hunger or being tired forever, for example (although many NTs try). And to be a bit gross (sorry sensitive readers) but true for at least >95% of the male population you have the escape to ‘help yourself’ with your unhappy libido every once in a while for the physical part (although of those 95% there will be few admitting that openly :P).

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